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	Comments on: &#8220;Works-based&#8221; salvation?	</title>
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		By: Nathan		</title>
		<link>https://nathanshumate.com/works-based-salvation/#comment-8568</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nathan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2026 14:27:01 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[Your understanding of faith vs. works is far better than most of the X commenters who try to use it as a cudgel against Mormons. Pity they didn&#039;t go to your Sunday School.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your understanding of faith vs. works is far better than most of the X commenters who try to use it as a cudgel against Mormons. Pity they didn&#8217;t go to your Sunday School.</p>
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		By: RK		</title>
		<link>https://nathanshumate.com/works-based-salvation/#comment-8567</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RK]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2026 00:17:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://nathanshumate.com/?p=52157#comment-8567</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Well, as I understood it back when I was a kid in Sunday School in the 1980s, the point of the &quot;faith, not works&quot; doctrine was that Christianity doesn&#039;t come with a karma meter, i.e. &quot;God will overlook your bad deeds if you do more good ones.&quot; As I learned in college later on, back when Martin Luther was focusing on that passage from Habakkuk about how &quot;the righteous shall live by faith&quot; in his fights with the corrupt clergy of his time, he likewise was not saying that we shouldn&#039;t do good works, just that those weren&#039;t what saved us (and it&#039;s worth remembering that at the time, he was taking up the cudgels against a lot of religious practices—such as the sale and purchase of indulgences—that seemed to be saying that good deeds &lt;i&gt;were&lt;/i&gt; what saved your soul, even those that were purchased from others via those indulgences). According to a student Bible I had as a teenager, Martin Luther himself eventually came to the conclusion &quot;It is by faith alone you are saved, but if faith &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; alone, it is not faith.&quot;

As I recall a more contemporary radio preacher saying when expounding on some of the finer points of the book of James, while good works are not what saves us, they do stand as a sort of proof of the faith that does. He compared these to proofs of a marriage&#039;s existence. In his analogy, he starts off with the premise: suppose you&#039;ve known a certain young couple with several young children who lives down the street from you for a number of years, and you happen to notice one day that these lovebirds are not wearing wedding rings and—as you continue to engage in various activities with them—in fact they &lt;i&gt;never&lt;/i&gt; wear wedding rings; so one evening when they&#039;re having you over for dinner, you raise an eyebrow and ask &quot;By the way, you&#039;re married, aren&#039;t you? Don&#039;t you have any wedding rings?&quot;

&quot;Oh yes, we&#039;ve been married for more than seven years now,&quot; he says. Says she, &quot;It&#039;s not right to advertise your beauty with jewelry, as Paul told us in his second letter to Timothy, chapter 2, verses 9-10.&quot;

&quot;Um, OK...&quot; you say (trying to hide your skepticism about their dubious interpretation of that Bible passage). &quot;You&#039;ve got a marriage license, though, right?&quot;

&quot;Ah, well, no,&quot; he replies. &quot;We&#039;re big believers in Common Law here; marriage is in the eyes of God, not the state; and you know how worthless those licenses must be in God&#039;s eyes these days when the perverts running that state will issue them to any two men or two women just as readily as they would to us.&quot;

&quot;Oh.&quot; Your eyebrow rises a bit higher. &quot;So you&#039;re kinda old-school, eh? You had your parents record the date of your wedding in a family Bible like some of those old-fashioned folks up in the Appalachians do?&quot;

He and she both shift a bit uncomfortably in their seats. &quot;Well, no,&quot; she says. &quot;Mom and Dad didn&#039;t much approve of my dating him; thought he was just trying to get into my panties.&quot;

&quot;It was the same with my folks,&quot; he adds. &quot;They both thought she was just some floozy, and they wouldn&#039;t listen when I told them we loved each other and wanted to get married, so... truth be told, we ended up eloping.&quot;

&quot;Oh, so you had a quickie wedding at a Vegas chapel?&quot;

&quot;Heavens, no!&quot; she cries. &quot;Can you imagine us getting married in such a den of iniquity?&quot;

&quot;Well, who witnessed your wedding, then?&quot;

&quot;Just she, me, and God,&quot; he replies.

&quot;Didn&#039;t you have any friends to help you with any of this?&quot;

&quot;Well, no,&quot; she says, &quot;He and I weren&#039;t too popular among our peers and kin back then; kinda lone kindred spirits, you might say.&quot;

&quot;Don&#039;t you even have any pictures of your wedding? Tickets for the gown and tuxedo rentals? Anything?&quot;

&quot;No...&quot;

To be sure (this radio preacher went on to say), maybe this couple really &lt;i&gt;are&lt;/i&gt; a husband and wife in God&#039;s eyes as they say; but you&#039;d be pretty skeptical of their claim to be married if they gave you this kind of runaround, wouldn&#039;t you? So too with believers: maybe the guy who says he&#039;s a Christian and yet never goes to church, never gives any of his time or money to charity, is never seen bowing his head in prayer or reading a Bible, never helps any of his neighbors with their problems, never sticks up for various Christian causes, and basically is never known to do any kind of good works whatsoever really &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; a Christian. However, that&#039;s not the way you&#039;d bet if anyone asked you whether you think he&#039;s a true believer, would you?

Hence (he concluded) James&#039; famous declaration in chapter 2, verse 17 of his epistle that &quot;Faith without works is dead.&quot; While our Lord &#038; Savior warned us a lot against making a big show out of doing good deeds to impress the people around us in chapter 6 of Matthew&#039;s Gospel, he also said (in the previous chapter, verses 13-16) that we were to be &quot;salt&quot; and &quot;light&quot; to the world and let others see us do good deeds in general so that they might give due glory (i.e. credit) for these deeds to our God. In short, if we really are Christians, we should be doing good deeds whether anyone is watching us or not.

You point out that good works demonstrate faith even when we&#039;re not &lt;i&gt;feeling&lt;/i&gt; all that faithful. I would say if anything, good works demonstrate faith &lt;i&gt;especially&lt;/i&gt; when we&#039;re not feeling all that faithful and yet do them anyway. Conversely, a faith that never has to struggle to persevere through challenges because it&#039;s never challenged can hardly be called faith at all.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, as I understood it back when I was a kid in Sunday School in the 1980s, the point of the &#8220;faith, not works&#8221; doctrine was that Christianity doesn&#8217;t come with a karma meter, i.e. &#8220;God will overlook your bad deeds if you do more good ones.&#8221; As I learned in college later on, back when Martin Luther was focusing on that passage from Habakkuk about how &#8220;the righteous shall live by faith&#8221; in his fights with the corrupt clergy of his time, he likewise was not saying that we shouldn&#8217;t do good works, just that those weren&#8217;t what saved us (and it&#8217;s worth remembering that at the time, he was taking up the cudgels against a lot of religious practices—such as the sale and purchase of indulgences—that seemed to be saying that good deeds <i>were</i> what saved your soul, even those that were purchased from others via those indulgences). According to a student Bible I had as a teenager, Martin Luther himself eventually came to the conclusion &#8220;It is by faith alone you are saved, but if faith <i>is</i> alone, it is not faith.&#8221;</p>
<p>As I recall a more contemporary radio preacher saying when expounding on some of the finer points of the book of James, while good works are not what saves us, they do stand as a sort of proof of the faith that does. He compared these to proofs of a marriage&#8217;s existence. In his analogy, he starts off with the premise: suppose you&#8217;ve known a certain young couple with several young children who lives down the street from you for a number of years, and you happen to notice one day that these lovebirds are not wearing wedding rings and—as you continue to engage in various activities with them—in fact they <i>never</i> wear wedding rings; so one evening when they&#8217;re having you over for dinner, you raise an eyebrow and ask &#8220;By the way, you&#8217;re married, aren&#8217;t you? Don&#8217;t you have any wedding rings?&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Oh yes, we&#8217;ve been married for more than seven years now,&#8221; he says. Says she, &#8220;It&#8217;s not right to advertise your beauty with jewelry, as Paul told us in his second letter to Timothy, chapter 2, verses 9-10.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Um, OK&#8230;&#8221; you say (trying to hide your skepticism about their dubious interpretation of that Bible passage). &#8220;You&#8217;ve got a marriage license, though, right?&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Ah, well, no,&#8221; he replies. &#8220;We&#8217;re big believers in Common Law here; marriage is in the eyes of God, not the state; and you know how worthless those licenses must be in God&#8217;s eyes these days when the perverts running that state will issue them to any two men or two women just as readily as they would to us.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Oh.&#8221; Your eyebrow rises a bit higher. &#8220;So you&#8217;re kinda old-school, eh? You had your parents record the date of your wedding in a family Bible like some of those old-fashioned folks up in the Appalachians do?&#8221;</p>
<p>He and she both shift a bit uncomfortably in their seats. &#8220;Well, no,&#8221; she says. &#8220;Mom and Dad didn&#8217;t much approve of my dating him; thought he was just trying to get into my panties.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;It was the same with my folks,&#8221; he adds. &#8220;They both thought she was just some floozy, and they wouldn&#8217;t listen when I told them we loved each other and wanted to get married, so&#8230; truth be told, we ended up eloping.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Oh, so you had a quickie wedding at a Vegas chapel?&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Heavens, no!&#8221; she cries. &#8220;Can you imagine us getting married in such a den of iniquity?&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Well, who witnessed your wedding, then?&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Just she, me, and God,&#8221; he replies.</p>
<p>&#8220;Didn&#8217;t you have any friends to help you with any of this?&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Well, no,&#8221; she says, &#8220;He and I weren&#8217;t too popular among our peers and kin back then; kinda lone kindred spirits, you might say.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Don&#8217;t you even have any pictures of your wedding? Tickets for the gown and tuxedo rentals? Anything?&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;No&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>To be sure (this radio preacher went on to say), maybe this couple really <i>are</i> a husband and wife in God&#8217;s eyes as they say; but you&#8217;d be pretty skeptical of their claim to be married if they gave you this kind of runaround, wouldn&#8217;t you? So too with believers: maybe the guy who says he&#8217;s a Christian and yet never goes to church, never gives any of his time or money to charity, is never seen bowing his head in prayer or reading a Bible, never helps any of his neighbors with their problems, never sticks up for various Christian causes, and basically is never known to do any kind of good works whatsoever really <i>is</i> a Christian. However, that&#8217;s not the way you&#8217;d bet if anyone asked you whether you think he&#8217;s a true believer, would you?</p>
<p>Hence (he concluded) James&#8217; famous declaration in chapter 2, verse 17 of his epistle that &#8220;Faith without works is dead.&#8221; While our Lord &amp; Savior warned us a lot against making a big show out of doing good deeds to impress the people around us in chapter 6 of Matthew&#8217;s Gospel, he also said (in the previous chapter, verses 13-16) that we were to be &#8220;salt&#8221; and &#8220;light&#8221; to the world and let others see us do good deeds in general so that they might give due glory (i.e. credit) for these deeds to our God. In short, if we really are Christians, we should be doing good deeds whether anyone is watching us or not.</p>
<p>You point out that good works demonstrate faith even when we&#8217;re not <i>feeling</i> all that faithful. I would say if anything, good works demonstrate faith <i>especially</i> when we&#8217;re not feeling all that faithful and yet do them anyway. Conversely, a faith that never has to struggle to persevere through challenges because it&#8217;s never challenged can hardly be called faith at all.</p>
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