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	Comments on: What is a cult?	</title>
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		By: Nathan		</title>
		<link>https://nathanshumate.com/what-is-a-cult/#comment-8765</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nathan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2026 13:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://nathanshumate.com/?p=55933#comment-8765</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[If you&#039;re just going to accuse me of &quot;twisting&quot; (rather than something less accusatory, like &quot;misinterpreting&quot;) quotes, why are you bothering to revive a closed thread for debate, if you consider me to be arguing in bad faith?  Why are you taking a slight sideways reference to something that&#039;s obviously not the focus of this post just you can talk about what YOU really want to talk about?

Nevertheless, some point form answers:

&lt;blockquote&gt;While one can certainly say there’s a kind of “elevation” in being adopted into God’s family and granted an eternal inheritance in Heaven and having Jesus acknowledge us as adopted brothers and sisters, that’s a far cry from being actual “gods” with anything even remotely resembling God’s omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Ah, the limitations of language... but also the limitations of human thought expressed in language. When these debates go into trying to define what &quot;god&quot; actually means, despite it being something that is entirely beyond our experience and comprehension, I simply end up back with the simple declarations that we can be made &quot;heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ&quot; (Romans 8:17) -- Christ who, as you constantly note, is as God as God can be. Beyond that, we&#039;re talking so far out of any human expertise that it&#039;s overreach to say that this and that absolutely CANNOT be, because it conflicts with a philosophical framework extrapolated out of scripture.  Anyone who claims that they know exactly what form any of this will take in the eternities is, frankly, wrong.

&lt;blockquote&gt;You also twisted the Scriptures to imply that God acknowledged there to be other gods up through the book of Judges.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That is not what I was implying. (Shall I accuse you of &quot;twisting?&quot;) My point was that several of the human figures in the OT, definitely up through David, are portrayed by the text as expressing their devotion to YHWH in terms consistent with monolatrous henotheism (that is, the idea that exclusive devotion to a single god does not deny the existence of other gods). This is not an argument about whether other nation&#039;s gods existed or not; it&#039;s simply that, as the OT reads, many prophets and laudable figures seem to accept the idea that other nation&#039;s gods are real but that they are to limit their devotion to YHWH, and God doesn&#039;t seem to be affronted by that idea in his followers.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you&#8217;re just going to accuse me of &#8220;twisting&#8221; (rather than something less accusatory, like &#8220;misinterpreting&#8221;) quotes, why are you bothering to revive a closed thread for debate, if you consider me to be arguing in bad faith?  Why are you taking a slight sideways reference to something that&#8217;s obviously not the focus of this post just you can talk about what YOU really want to talk about?</p>
<p>Nevertheless, some point form answers:</p>
<blockquote><p>While one can certainly say there’s a kind of “elevation” in being adopted into God’s family and granted an eternal inheritance in Heaven and having Jesus acknowledge us as adopted brothers and sisters, that’s a far cry from being actual “gods” with anything even remotely resembling God’s omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence.</p></blockquote>
<p>Ah, the limitations of language&#8230; but also the limitations of human thought expressed in language. When these debates go into trying to define what &#8220;god&#8221; actually means, despite it being something that is entirely beyond our experience and comprehension, I simply end up back with the simple declarations that we can be made &#8220;heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ&#8221; (Romans 8:17) &#8212; Christ who, as you constantly note, is as God as God can be. Beyond that, we&#8217;re talking so far out of any human expertise that it&#8217;s overreach to say that this and that absolutely CANNOT be, because it conflicts with a philosophical framework extrapolated out of scripture.  Anyone who claims that they know exactly what form any of this will take in the eternities is, frankly, wrong.</p>
<blockquote><p>You also twisted the Scriptures to imply that God acknowledged there to be other gods up through the book of Judges.</p></blockquote>
<p>That is not what I was implying. (Shall I accuse you of &#8220;twisting?&#8221;) My point was that several of the human figures in the OT, definitely up through David, are portrayed by the text as expressing their devotion to YHWH in terms consistent with monolatrous henotheism (that is, the idea that exclusive devotion to a single god does not deny the existence of other gods). This is not an argument about whether other nation&#8217;s gods existed or not; it&#8217;s simply that, as the OT reads, many prophets and laudable figures seem to accept the idea that other nation&#8217;s gods are real but that they are to limit their devotion to YHWH, and God doesn&#8217;t seem to be affronted by that idea in his followers.</p>
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		<title>
		By: RK		</title>
		<link>https://nathanshumate.com/what-is-a-cult/#comment-8763</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RK]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2026 06:57:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://nathanshumate.com/?p=55933#comment-8763</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[On that fifth point of Robinson&#039;s, I would point out that you did the very twisting of terms he refers to there in your now-closed comments section when you were citing certain Fathers from the Early Church. Some of that (particularly the words of Athanasius) certainly &lt;i&gt;did&lt;/i&gt; sound an awful lot like the god-making of which you and some of your Mormon church&#039;s theologians (from whom you undoubtedly gathered those quotes) speak... until I checked the sources. When one starts reading the context in those documents from which Mormon scholars pulled those (translated) quotes, one soon comes to realize not a one of them was speaking of &lt;i&gt;becoming&lt;/i&gt; a god, but rather of &lt;i&gt;partaking&lt;/i&gt; in some of God&#039;s &quot;divinity&quot; or holiness through adoption into God&#039;s family as mentioned in Ephesians 1:5 and discussed at some length in chapter 2 of Hebrews.

As noted, neither you nor I are scholars of the Greek. From those who are, however, I have learned that the Greek word rather dubiously translated as &quot;made gods&quot; in the quote from Athanasius is &lt;i&gt;theopoiethomen&lt;/i&gt;, which refers neither to being given any divine powers (as many in the Greco-Roman Pantheon—such as Heracles a.k.a. Hercules—were said to be) nor being granted some divine title as with some of the Emperors who got &quot;deified&quot; as mentioned in Suetonius&#039; biographies (an Eastern practice which neither the Western Roman public nor their Emperors took all that seriously except at times when megalomaniacs like Caligula or Domitian were in power), but to sharing in God&#039;s communicable divine traits like goodness, holiness, and love. While one can certainly say there&#039;s a kind of &quot;elevation&quot; in being adopted into God&#039;s family and granted an eternal inheritance in Heaven and having Jesus acknowledge us as adopted brothers and sisters, that&#039;s a far cry from being actual &quot;gods&quot; with anything even remotely resembling God&#039;s omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence.

Moreover, this twisting of the meaning of &quot;deification&quot; as the Fathers from the Early Church spoke of it is also very like Satan&#039;s deception in Genesis 3:4-5. It&#039;s true his claim in verse 5 was not an out-and-out-lie as you said; the plain lie was in verse 4 when he said they would not die, which (as Paul would outline in Romans 7:9) their souls certainly &lt;i&gt;did&lt;/i&gt; immediately do just as God had warned. Rather, Satan&#039;s deception in saying &quot;You will be like God [&lt;i&gt;Elohim&lt;/i&gt;], knowing good and evil...&quot; lay in his omitting &quot;...but in pretty much &lt;i&gt;no other way&lt;/i&gt; whatsoever.&quot;

Thanks to that deception, as acknowledged in Genesis 3:22 (as you said), we&#039;ve certainly known a lot about good and evil ever since: even those who foolishly deny the distinction or insist they are somehow beyond it (like Nietzsche, who wrote a whole book on the subject) know of good and evil from seeing others be wronged and being wronged themselves (and—for those with a working conscience—from having wronged others) and in some cases seeking to right these wrongs. Knowing good and evil, however, certainly hasn&#039;t granted us anything even remotely approaching God&#039;s infinite knowledge, infinite presence, and infinite power, has it? In fact, one could say Adam and Eve (and consequently we as well) were made a lot &lt;i&gt;less&lt;/i&gt; like God in having been stripped of the everlasting life their residency in the Garden of Eden provided for them.

You also twisted the Scriptures to imply that God acknowledged there to be other gods up through the book of Judges. To pretend that acknowledging people were worshiping things other than God (in disobedience to the very first of the Ten Commandments) is the same as acknowledging those other things to &lt;i&gt;be&lt;/i&gt; actual gods (rather than fraudulent substitutes for the real thing) is to engage in an equivocation fallacy. In case that whole first of the Ten Commandments didn&#039;t spell it out for you clearly enough, God unambiguously states in Isaiah 43:10 that &quot;Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.&quot;

While I won&#039;t deny God may well have created other worlds—maybe even &lt;i&gt;infinite&lt;/i&gt; other worlds—with other beings made in His image, possibly even populated some of the other distant planets in &lt;i&gt;this&lt;/i&gt; world (which I won&#039;t call a universe, since this entire &quot;multiverse&quot; concept is a gross corruption of the original meaning for the word &quot;universe&quot; which is supposed to be &quot;everything that exists everywhere&quot;) with all these images of Himself, none of these possibilities leave any room for other actual gods to exist. The reason no god will ever be formed after God is because since He is the &quot;everlasting&quot; God, there &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; no such thing as &quot;after&quot; God; and conversely, God being eternal (&quot;from everlasting to everlasting&quot; as the Hebrews put it), there is no such thing as &quot;before&quot; God either. To be &quot;deified&quot; in the Biblical sense means we will have a seat at God&#039;s table in Heaven, and (according to Revelation) a select few will even have thrones and crowns and authority to preside as judges over the world, among other Heavenly rewards for true faithfulness; what it does not mean is that we will &lt;i&gt;ever&lt;/i&gt; be &quot;gods&quot; in any sense that your church&#039;s theologians and other scholars are wishing it did.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On that fifth point of Robinson&#8217;s, I would point out that you did the very twisting of terms he refers to there in your now-closed comments section when you were citing certain Fathers from the Early Church. Some of that (particularly the words of Athanasius) certainly <i>did</i> sound an awful lot like the god-making of which you and some of your Mormon church&#8217;s theologians (from whom you undoubtedly gathered those quotes) speak&#8230; until I checked the sources. When one starts reading the context in those documents from which Mormon scholars pulled those (translated) quotes, one soon comes to realize not a one of them was speaking of <i>becoming</i> a god, but rather of <i>partaking</i> in some of God&#8217;s &#8220;divinity&#8221; or holiness through adoption into God&#8217;s family as mentioned in Ephesians 1:5 and discussed at some length in chapter 2 of Hebrews.</p>
<p>As noted, neither you nor I are scholars of the Greek. From those who are, however, I have learned that the Greek word rather dubiously translated as &#8220;made gods&#8221; in the quote from Athanasius is <i>theopoiethomen</i>, which refers neither to being given any divine powers (as many in the Greco-Roman Pantheon—such as Heracles a.k.a. Hercules—were said to be) nor being granted some divine title as with some of the Emperors who got &#8220;deified&#8221; as mentioned in Suetonius&#8217; biographies (an Eastern practice which neither the Western Roman public nor their Emperors took all that seriously except at times when megalomaniacs like Caligula or Domitian were in power), but to sharing in God&#8217;s communicable divine traits like goodness, holiness, and love. While one can certainly say there&#8217;s a kind of &#8220;elevation&#8221; in being adopted into God&#8217;s family and granted an eternal inheritance in Heaven and having Jesus acknowledge us as adopted brothers and sisters, that&#8217;s a far cry from being actual &#8220;gods&#8221; with anything even remotely resembling God&#8217;s omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence.</p>
<p>Moreover, this twisting of the meaning of &#8220;deification&#8221; as the Fathers from the Early Church spoke of it is also very like Satan&#8217;s deception in Genesis 3:4-5. It&#8217;s true his claim in verse 5 was not an out-and-out-lie as you said; the plain lie was in verse 4 when he said they would not die, which (as Paul would outline in Romans 7:9) their souls certainly <i>did</i> immediately do just as God had warned. Rather, Satan&#8217;s deception in saying &#8220;You will be like God [<i>Elohim</i>], knowing good and evil&#8230;&#8221; lay in his omitting &#8220;&#8230;but in pretty much <i>no other way</i> whatsoever.&#8221;</p>
<p>Thanks to that deception, as acknowledged in Genesis 3:22 (as you said), we&#8217;ve certainly known a lot about good and evil ever since: even those who foolishly deny the distinction or insist they are somehow beyond it (like Nietzsche, who wrote a whole book on the subject) know of good and evil from seeing others be wronged and being wronged themselves (and—for those with a working conscience—from having wronged others) and in some cases seeking to right these wrongs. Knowing good and evil, however, certainly hasn&#8217;t granted us anything even remotely approaching God&#8217;s infinite knowledge, infinite presence, and infinite power, has it? In fact, one could say Adam and Eve (and consequently we as well) were made a lot <i>less</i> like God in having been stripped of the everlasting life their residency in the Garden of Eden provided for them.</p>
<p>You also twisted the Scriptures to imply that God acknowledged there to be other gods up through the book of Judges. To pretend that acknowledging people were worshiping things other than God (in disobedience to the very first of the Ten Commandments) is the same as acknowledging those other things to <i>be</i> actual gods (rather than fraudulent substitutes for the real thing) is to engage in an equivocation fallacy. In case that whole first of the Ten Commandments didn&#8217;t spell it out for you clearly enough, God unambiguously states in Isaiah 43:10 that &#8220;Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.&#8221;</p>
<p>While I won&#8217;t deny God may well have created other worlds—maybe even <i>infinite</i> other worlds—with other beings made in His image, possibly even populated some of the other distant planets in <i>this</i> world (which I won&#8217;t call a universe, since this entire &#8220;multiverse&#8221; concept is a gross corruption of the original meaning for the word &#8220;universe&#8221; which is supposed to be &#8220;everything that exists everywhere&#8221;) with all these images of Himself, none of these possibilities leave any room for other actual gods to exist. The reason no god will ever be formed after God is because since He is the &#8220;everlasting&#8221; God, there <i>is</i> no such thing as &#8220;after&#8221; God; and conversely, God being eternal (&#8220;from everlasting to everlasting&#8221; as the Hebrews put it), there is no such thing as &#8220;before&#8221; God either. To be &#8220;deified&#8221; in the Biblical sense means we will have a seat at God&#8217;s table in Heaven, and (according to Revelation) a select few will even have thrones and crowns and authority to preside as judges over the world, among other Heavenly rewards for true faithfulness; what it does not mean is that we will <i>ever</i> be &#8220;gods&#8221; in any sense that your church&#8217;s theologians and other scholars are wishing it did.</p>
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